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Forum: The Rules

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2016-03-30 15:36:55 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
Admin date
# 7005
We have problem with admin date.
Especially with dates apropriate to each team.
My opponent suddenly say that their admin time is 15.

in rule we can read: 6.9.

- The Committee divides the teams into groups according to their assumed time zones. There are three groups with starting times to be used as admin date: 15:00, 17:00 and 19:00 CET respectively.

- The captains have the right to change their group allocation during the 1st round, until the 2nd Sunday, 24:00, CET. The captains can request such a change during the whole EL season, in case of reasonable circumstances (eg. new players from different time zones joined the team). The Committee will decide about such requests.

1) For years admin time was 10.00 , next changed to 19.00
so i expect that:
a) default admin time is 19.00 traditionally
b) or Committee divides
c) or captains request change (and Committee decide)

2) I not see in any place b) or c)
i assume that such a information should be published
if it is not published before i consider as unfair to say "private"
"we have admin on 15 or 17 becouse we want"
It should be clear before round !

I ask Committee about clear and honestanswer in this case
2014-10-30 00:17:16 Igor Eged (outiec)
New rules
# 6914
Hello all,
we updated the rules, but there was technical problem with publishing, hope the administrator will be able to update them soon, I sent him the file.

Teams can pick one from 3 starting time groups - 15,17 or 19 CET, if you have some preference, write us, the committee will initially assign teams based on timezones and it can be changed on teams request during first 2 weeks of the round.
2014-02-17 21:44:25 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
Summary of PPs after 6th round
# 6835
1. Sum of walkovers (3 walkovers=disqualification from the competition) :

3 w.o. Tvoje smrt (DISQUALIFICATION)

2. Penalty points of the teams (30 and more pp = w.o. in the next round):
15 pp Czech Payback
13 pp Polar Bears
12 pp No To Co
12 pp Outsiders
9 pp WayToTheSun
2 pp Dark Team
2 pp Slovenian Dragons 1

3.
A) Penalty points of players (15 pp = ban for the player in the next round)

Punishments:
(ban for the players) Punishment from the EL 2012/13
3 rounds: Kirill Koval (after he will join to one team)

B) Penalty points of all players of the same team (30 pp of all players of the same team = w.o. for the tam in the next round)
-
2014-01-18 18:10:55 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
Summary of PPs aftre 4th round
# 6814
1. Sum of walkovers (3 walkovers=disqualification from the competition) :

2 w.o. Tvoje smrt

2. Penalty points of the teams (30 and more pp = w.o. in the next round):

13 pp Polar Bears
12 pp No To Co
10 pp Outsiders
6 pp Dark Team
5 pp Czech Payback
2 pp Demons and Wizards

3.
A) Penalty points of players (15 pp = ban for the player in the next round)

Punishments:
(ban for the players) Punishment from the EL 2012/13
3 rounds: Kirill Koval (after he will join to one team)

B) Penalty points of all players of the same team (30 pp of all players of the same team = w.o. for the tam in the next round)
-
2014-01-10 14:13:06 Vladimir Nipoti (angrypanda)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6807
Usiek:

I decide according to the cirmustances and to the best of my knowledge. And request few hours after and three weeks after even round just makes difference.

Publishing what I said in private is not polite, you know that.

That's all I can add to your provocative message.
2014-01-10 00:21:57 Łukasz Majksner (gmusiek)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6806
@Bano

The point is: you say you would vote "yes" if similar case happened (short time after regular period) and yesterday you told me you'd say "no" if the time was longer (like my case). Please tell me how is it connected with rules? It just depends on mood of yours and other Committee's members?

You say that my accusations about partiality are "fake"... Can you tell me why do you think so? This is just a sentence with no arguments justifying it. Please read mine once again and tell me when I'm wrong or when I'm lying. And I'll repeat myself - in my eyes it is a partiality. Are you trying to threat me? It feels like "you will regret you words".

Unnecessary wave? Of course, it would be best for you if people didn't notice that so there would be no discussion and noone would undermine Commitee's authority. But unfortunately for you there is and you should think more widely why it happened. It's not just our whim, we base on facts, rules and Committee's past behavior in similar case.
2014-01-09 23:36:36 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6804
Bano, on our forum we discuss and I'm glad that angst want's write like member EL Committee. We have different opinion for this case (sometimes is regular battle), but we can ask and write about everything. I don't believe, that here members of Committee would to write answer for all posts (you see my messages on polish forum :-))

Ondik was added at 12:07, I wrote at 23:11. When you will write official decision? For what waiting? "Pairing will can later", "Decision will can later", later are just cases like this.

For me point 8.1 is good, but changes can be after every round. Now is another case, because yours mistake was after pairing. If you knew, that gregi will can problem with add new player, then you can wrote to iec directly after match against FF. Now Committee decided did exception for yours advantage, what is not fair in my opinion.

In rules deadline is at 23:59. In system probably when iec will create pairing new round (yes, just he knows when they will be), but if everyone will wants waiting, because "pairing will later", then will be problems. Should be rigid limit and it is - last sunday in round at 23:59. If someone wants waiting, then is his problem and his risk.

Regards,
- Zukole.
2014-01-09 23:01:51 Vladimir Nipoti (angrypanda)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6802
Lets explain it once for all and conctrate our energy on more important things.

From what I know almost all the votes who agreed with the addition of pandik1 were based on the grounds of the motives mentioned by Iec. You can consider it an official explanation.

For me, personally, the main reason to add pandik was that the round was really weird with EL server and that the request was made really fast after (yes after) the pairing. I can assure that if anyone made the same request with such circumstances (maybe even without server collapse but few hours after the pairing) my vote would be yes (I can't talk for all the committee). Lets not compare other cases because all the cases mentioned were made days after the pairing, not hours. If I knew the pairing will be made so early, I would probably ask iec to publish it later. Then there will be no problem and noone would complain.

Even though you tried to spread this unnecessary wave by writing it on national forums, I consider this case closed. And maybe one more thing, we were probably going to publish the decision later (our mistake we didnt do it immediately), but zukole was faster.

Best regards
Bano

PS: If anyone is not content with the current rules, he can always write a proposal with new adjustments and enhancements and we as committee will always negotiate it with an appropriate conclusion.

PPS: Usiek: I will ignore your fake accusations about "partiality" etc. and hope that in the future you will understand what you have written. Other questions were answered by iec.
2014-01-09 13:39:02 Łukasz Majksner (gmusiek)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6800
A little correction.

2. Noone here has anything against ondik as a human or player, to be clear. It's about Committee's behavior, as I mentioned before.

In last point there should be "(...) made few hours after (...)" instead of this i posted. My mistake.
2014-01-09 13:35:26 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6799
I don't see sense give request if you earlier had voting. Two votings, two opinion ? :-) after some days? I want to know, why you decided make exception from rule 8.1 (I wrote x time about it). You = official opinion EL's Committee. I see result - ondik in pandas, but don't know opinion.

Point 8.1 is one from more important rules in EL.
Your arguments:
a)"were server problem" - they can add just after match ! match was in last sunday, so they cant did this earlier.
b)"the request was made very closely after pairing was new round was created" - request was after pairing - in ODD ROUND. Changes are possible just in EVEN.
c)"this change in the strength of team VP means nothing dramatical against the opponents that await them in these 2 rounds, I guess with or without this player the results would be about the same" Nobody knows with who will play Pandas in sixth round. Bano gave me tips and I checked opponents in 6th round - are 3 opponents (if all scores will like bano's tips, if not would be more). Did you see on name those teams? If probably they will play with Company, so it's ok but if they will play with The Lords of XO isn't ok?
d)I write about rules, and you write about betting ? :)
e)Angst approves so it's ok? And captain from 6th round? His opinion is important?

Everyone team if want's play must aprove "want to play and agree with new rules." I know that you point 15.1 and you can do everything, but WAS mistake from team Violent Pandas and you did exception for their advantage.

If you as Committee still don't see difference, that all operation were AFTER pairing (request and yours adding) and your decision did precedent from rule, them I don't see sense more writting about it. For sure it's better for you ;].

Regards,
-Zukole.
2014-01-09 13:32:40 Łukasz Majksner (gmusiek)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6798
1. Why do we protest:
- situation was not exceptional - server was back on during last weekend of even round, gregi was online, so he could easily accept ondik on time. His failure is not enough excuse to make such exception.
- due to EL rules date of request doesn't matter, because it was made after even round, which is against EL rules. Comparing to my case I was ignored (or not informed, feels same). Longer period after regular is not good excuse due to EL rules. Moreover BM had theoretically higher priority of adding new player, because after joyoman's quitting it was left with 4 player, while Violent pandas was left with 6. It means EL Committee is inconsequent.
- we do not judge your decision due to strengthening Violent Pandas more or less, but because it's clear partiality. Bano as Committee's member made the request to accept well-known strong player, Committee agreed almost immediately, while the situation was not exceptional. Unfortunately you didn't break rule 8.1, because not captain accepted ondik, but administrator due to Committee's decision... Is that fair?
- we do not want to exclude ondik after all this case, but we want Committee to confess it was a bad decision (unjustified) and maybe make some changes in rules to distinguish the case when such request is made 6 hours of beginning of odd round (eg. 72h) from case it's made later. It would avoid similar problems in the future.
2014-01-09 13:00:46 Igor Eged (outiec)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6797
I can say why I voted for it:
- there were server problems in this round
- the request was made very closely after pairing was new round was created
- this change in the strength of team VP means nothing dramatical against the opponents that await them in these 2 rounds, I guess with or without this player the results would be about the same
- the impact to betting competition is minimal and people can adjust their bets
- captain of their next opponent DT (Piotr) said he approves it and looks forward to playing against this changed player
2014-01-09 12:50:46 Igor Eged (outiec)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6796
Not sure if this is worth our time and energy atm.
Do you protest against this decision? Give some request and we will handle it by voting.
Or you want to hear why committee members voted for it?
Or you want to change the rules to specify in detail in which points committee can change something by voting?

Be more specific about your target in this case, please.
2014-01-09 00:07:18 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6793
the request was within few hours after the pairing. Was afterpairing, in odd round. Changes of players are possible just in even round. Would be ok, if they changes before pairing and accordance with rules.

the captain could not have breached the rule 8 as the program doesn't allow it, only person that can add him is the administrator on request from a committee member or organizer. Yes, I know. I repeat, why you decided to make exception from rule 8.1? We have precedent which isn't explained. Was time for adding player to team. Bano wrotes It was my mistake, if I kick yourself from team and I will write, that this is mistake - will can play? Probably was similar problem with an24 some years ago (kick yourself).

Please explain it, because this isn't answer for me question.

Regards,
-Zukole.
2014-01-08 22:34:37 Igor Eged (outiec)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6790
I agree, the request and then the response and information about our decision should have been put into the forum, that might have been the mistake in this case.

As it was made by committe member, we handled it directly in the committee forum and we forgot about this nuance, our fault..
The committee used the voting mechanism where we approved this change, the request was within few hours after the pairing, I know I made the pairing this time in rather unusual time of the day, but we had a holiday and I waited until some results were corrected and confirmed (there was 8-2 personal result for purkys I think).

Yes, in the past the round pairings were often published in the night from monday to tuesday (last one just before this one was may be even on sunday) and the mechanism allows the captain to add the player only within defined timeframe (after their result in even round is confirmed and before I start next round by creating it in the system with pairing), so the captain could not have breached the rule 8 as the program doesn't allow it, only person that can add him is the administrator on request from a committee member or organizer.

So no rule was broken, we can only discuss about the conditions, fairness in regard to previous similar cases, I read about Black Magic case (tbh already forgot it but it surely must be in committee forum archive), may be there were also some others, but the circumstances, general atmosphere and also members of committee were different.
Or theoretically there can be a discussion why which member of committee made such and such vote (not exactly important in this actual case but generally), but I guess if captains would want some change in rules or committee, they can suggest it and offer some alternative.
2014-01-08 15:49:53 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6780
I am waiting for official opinion of EL's Committee :-).

Some words.
Point 4.3 - One round lasts 21 days. Every round starts on Monday and finishes on Sunday at 24:00. There can be some exceptions according to the Committee’s decision. Bano wrotes, that he asked EL Committee in Monday, when should be just new round. Sometimes were instances, that captains add new player in Monday and was ok. Is one difference - they did this BEFORE pairing new-odd round. Saw someone just data without pairings here? In previous seasons pairings were in Tuesday, but wasn't information that is new round. Maybe for system new round = pairing new round. Now we have a precedent. System blocks trying to add new player in odd round, and EL Committee decided to add new player for team Violent Pandas. It is a breaking point 8.1 rules (I quoted earlier).

EL Committee can make exceptions (point 15.1), and they used this point, but why? We know, that was problem with EL's site, just Gregi (captain VP) can add new player after match VP - Final Fantasy, not earlier when site does not work. They have time for adding like iec, which added player ouups for team Outsiders. Only rational(lol?) argument is "we can and we want make this because is 15.1".

I have nothing personal to players Violent Pandas and I'm glad that ondik wants play in EL, but it would be better if Pandas add him BEFORE new round in system. Now I repeat - we have a precedent which is good for VP, maybe for Committee and passive observers. Is it not fair for other players, because Committed did exception from rules for VP.

I hope, that Committee will don't write about EL's server and data of match Violent Pandas - Final Fantasy. I explained this. I want to know if were another arguments for yours decision.

Regards,
- Zukole.
2014-01-08 13:46:03 Vladimir Nipoti (angrypanda)
RE: 8. Move of players
# 6778
I can explain. It was my mistake as I assumed that the pairing will be done on Monday later and we had time before pairing. Unfortunately, when I came home, the pairing was already on. That's why I asked EL committee for the permission to add a new player few hours after the pairing. The committee decided only on Tuesday. Thats why it took so long. If anyone asked the Committee the same at the same time, the desicion would be the same. Please take into account that EL site started to work on Saturday.
2014-01-07 23:11:17 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
8. Move of players
# 6775
8.1. A player can join chosen team anytime. A captain can accept new player during every even round, however only after his team's match is finished in this round.

Can someone explain, how ondik was added in odd round? I know, that was problem with EL's site, but Pandas played match in last day 4th round. They can add a new player in sunday's night like Outsiders (new player - ouups). Today, so two days since start 5th round I can just ask - how it's possible?
2013-10-18 17:12:07 smirnov anatolij (barbos)
RE: Admin date & punishments
# 6690
Group C-team No To Co. 2 players 19:00 (Tyumen time)
2013-10-16 12:49:43 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
Admin date & punishments
# 6689
1. Admin date is on the last Sunday of each round at 19:00, local time, but it is depend on the time zones of the teams.

Examples:
a) a team from group C plays vs. team from group B at 19:00 (Tyumen time) = 17:00 (Moscow time) = 15:00 (CET),
b) a team from group C plays vs. a team from group A at 19:00 (Tyumen time) = 15:00 (CET),
c) a team from group B plays vs. a team from group B at 19:00 (Moscow time) = 17:00 (CET),
d) a team from group B plays vs. a team from group A at 19:00 (Moscow time) = 17:00 (CET),
e) a team from group A plays vs. a team from group A at 19:00 (CET).

Group A: Company, Czech Payback, Czech Payback B, Dark Team, Demons and Wizards, Light Team, Luffarna, Outsiders, Slovenian Dragons 1, The Lords of XO, Tvoje smrt, Violent Pandas;

Group B: Final Fantasy, No To Co, Thunderstorm, WayToTheSun;

Group C: Polar Bears.

The captains of the teams, which have players from different time zones, can change the group till 23th October. After that date will not be possible to change the group till the end of the season.

2. Punishments, which are valid from the season 2012/13:

Ban for the players:
3 rounds:
- Alex Popiel (Lolamaza, LXO) (1st, 2nd and 3rd round)
- Kirill Koval (after he will join to one team)
2013-03-18 18:18:13 Monika Kolouchová (olsava)
Summary of pps after 7th rounds
# 6650
1. Sum of walkovers (3 walkovers=disqualification from the competition) :

2 w.o. Sex Pistols
1 w.o. Thunderstorm, Miss-click

2. Penalty points of the teams (30 and more pp = w.o. in the next round):

25 pp Sex Pistols
20 pp Miss-click
18 pp Cicafanok
8 pp Lucky team
6 pp Renegades
5 pp Lords of XO, Czech Layback, Rockfall, Thunderstorm


3.
A) Penalty points of players (15 pp = ban for the player in the next round)

15 pp bappka (Renegades) (=bashibyzyk)
5 pp bashibyzyk(Renegades)

B) Penalty points of all players of the same team (30 pp of all players of the same team = w.o. for the tam in the next round)

20 pp Renegades

PUNISHMENTS (ban for the players)

8 rounds: Popiel (Lolamaza, LXO) (rounds: 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 in EL12/13 and 1, 2, 3 in EL13/14)
3 rounds: Katchev Denis (ffsnow, FF); Iliya Muratov (fflightning, FF) (rounds: 6, 7, 8 in EL12/13)
4 rounds: Drabos Tamas (Drabost, Cicafanok) (rounds 6, 7, 8, 9 in EL12/13)
3 rounds: Kirill Koval (after he will join to one team)
2 rounds: Oleg Bulatovsky (Logelo0one, LXO) (rounds 5, 6 in EL12/13)
2013-03-18 18:11:29 Monika Kolouchová (olsava)
Penalty points 7th round
# 6649
w.o. - Sex Pistols, Thunderstorm

7.5 games by w.o. (-/+)

10pp Miss-click
2pp Renegades

f) Team and its players didnt get any pp in the last 3 rounds
-1pp Slovenian Dragons
2013-02-23 20:47:42 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
Summary of pps after 6th rounds
# 6610
1. Sum of walkovers (3 walkovers=disqualification from the competition) :

1 w.o. Sex Pistols, Miss-click

2. Penalty points of the teams (30 and more pp = w.o. in the next round):

25 pp Sex Pistols
20 pp Cicafanok
10 pp Miss-click
8 pp Lucky team
5 pp Lords of XO, Czech Layback, Rockfall, Thunderstorm
4 pp Renegades
1 pp Slovenian Dragons 1


3.
A) Penalty points of players (15 pp = ban for the player in the next round)

15 pp bappka (Renegades) (=bashibyzyk)
5 pp bashibyzyk(Renegades)

B) Penalty points of all players of the same team (30 pp of all players of the same team = w.o. for the tam in the next round)

20 pp Renegades

PUNISHMENTS (ban for the players)

8 rounds: Popiel (Lolamaza, LXO) (rounds: 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 in EL12/13 and 1, 2, 3 in EL13/14)
3 rounds: Katchev Denis (ffsnow, FF); Iliya Muratov (fflightning, FF) (rounds: 6, 7, 8 in EL12/13)
4 rounds: Drabos Tamas (Drabost, Cicafanok) (rounds 6, 7, 8, 9 in EL12/13)
3 rounds: Kirill Koval (after he will join to one team)
2 rounds: Oleg Bulatovsky (Logelo0one, LXO) (rounds 5, 6 in EL12/13)
1 round: Roman Belyakov (bappka = bashibyzyk, Renegades) (round 7)
2013-02-23 20:43:10 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
PPs in 1st, 2nd, 5th and 6th rounds
# 6609
a) 1st round
7.5 games by w.o. (-/+)
8pp Cicafanok

b) 2nd round
7.5 games by w.o. (-/+)
8pp Cicafanok

c) 3th round
2.6 playing with wrong nickname
5pp bappka (Renegades)

d) 5th round
2.6 playing with wrong nickname
5pp bappka (Renegades)

7.5 games by w.o. (-/+)
8pp Rockfall

9.5 captain didn't approve the result
5pp Czech Layback, Miss click, Thunderstorm

e) 6th round
2.6 playing with wrong nickname
5pp bappka (Renegades)

7.5 games by w.o. (-/+)
8pp Lucky team

9.5 captain didn't approve the result
5pp Lords of XO

f) Team and its players didnt get any pp in the last 3 rounds
-2pp Cicafanok, Slovenian Dragons
-1pp Violent pandas
2013-02-15 23:26:52 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
RE: New admin date
# 6598
You have right, the admin date is on last Sunday at 19:00, CET. This rule has not been included in the programm and therefore the programm defined the old time. Of course, the match can be played at 10:00, if both captains agree.
2013-02-15 00:30:55 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: New admin date
# 6597
I have technical question (unrelated with official date of match). Why in match Demons and Wizards - Dark Team admin date is at 10:00, if should be at 19:00 ?:)
2013-01-28 08:21:02 Monika Kolouchová (olsava)
Summary of pps after 4th round
# 6563
1. Sum of walkovers (3 walkovers=disqualification from the competition) :

1 w.o. Sex Pistols, Miss-click

2. Penalty points of the teams (30 and more pp = w.o. in the next round):

25 pp Sex Pistols
5 pp Miss-click
4 pp Renegades, Cicafanok
3 pp Slovenian Dragons 1
1 pp Violent Pandas

3. Penalty points of players

5pp bashibyzyk(Renegades)
2012-12-12 20:06:49 Monika Kolouchová (olsava)
Summary of pps after 3rd round
# 6447
1. Sum of walkovers (3 walkovers=disqualification from the competition) :

1 w.o. Sex Pistols

2. Penalty points of the teams (30 and more pp = w.o. in the next round):

25 pp Sex Pistols
5 pp Miss-click
4 pp Cicafanok
3 pp Slovenian Dragons 1
1 pp Violent Pandas

3. Penalty points of players

5pp bashibyzyk(Renegades)
2012-12-12 20:00:08 Monika Kolouchová (olsava)
Penalty points 3rd round
# 6446
9.5 captain didn't approve the result

5pp Miss-click

7.5 games by w.o. (-/+)

4pp Cicafanok
2pp Slovenian Dragons 1
1pp Violent Pandas
2012-11-21 15:17:37 Monika Kolouchová (olsava)
Summary of pps after 2nd round
# 6410
1. Sum of walkovers (3 walkovers=disqualification from the competition) :
-

2. Penalty points of the teams (30 and more pp = w.o. in the next round):

25 pp Sex Pistols
1 pp Slovenian Dragons 1

3. Penalty points of players

5pp bashibyzyk(Renegades)
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