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Forum: Euroleague

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2021-01-10 04:48:29 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7196
Marek, if you really mean to say I committed the crime of blackmail, your allegation is not supported by the president of the organization you allege I tried to blackmail. He explicitly stated on this forum a few hours ago that he personally doesn't consider me to have committed a crime.
2021-01-10 00:29:35 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: The decisions
# 7195
Sandra asks is he a criminal? You have not yet been convicted just because it is difficult for the courts and the police to pursue an internet anonymous.
2021-01-09 22:39:41 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7194
Frantisek, my dear young idealistic Czech friend, it looks like you really believe in principles :) When I was your age, I was as naive as you are. Let me shatter your world with one simple question. Let's suppose a billionaire comes and says he wants to donate one million dollars for gomoku under the condition that he be allowed to play in the EL under a pseudonym, because he is a famous billionaire and doesn't want his gomoku results to be discussed in tabloids. To stay on the safe side, he refuses to reveal his name to anyone in the gomoku community, but provides compelling evidence that he's a billionaire and that he has already donated a lot of money to various charities. Will you be against accepting his offer? You said in your last post, ''I treat the thing as a general principle, if it was anyone else, I would act the same.'' So will you act the same? Really? Will you really reject one million dollars? Will you really walk away from such an opportunity to secure funding for truly attractive monetary prizes in gomoku tournaments for years? And if not, what will you do if half a million dollars is offered? What if quarter a million is offered? How much money is enough and why?

Also, I believe my question about Alicecooper is right on point. Your argument is, ''I don't trust anonyms.'' So let's see whether you trust non-anonymous players. If you don't trust them either, your argument isn't worth a plugged nickel. Alicecooper is a non-anonymous player. Do you trust that he isn't a cheater? Yes or no, please. If you dodge this question once again, I'll take it as a no. If you trusted him, you would just say so.
2021-01-09 22:28:31 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7193
Usiek, thanks for your response. That's what I wanted to hear. I'm not a criminal.
2021-01-09 20:40:06 Łukasz Majksner (scammer)
RE: The decisions
# 7192
Sandra, as the President of PSGRiP, I can only confirm that you threatened us. According to the Polish law, whether someone has committed a criminal offense or not can be only determined by a criminal court's judgment. Therefore the PSGRiP is not eligible for judging on accusations.

I personally do not consider you to have committed a crime.

Besides, the Polish counterpart of the English word blackmail - szantaz - is used in Poland in reference to not only criminal actions.
2021-01-06 23:15:07 František Fňukal (payzel)
RE: The decisions
# 7191
Sandra, you are right! I didn't answer that question and I will repeat myself once more - It is irrelevant to the issue of you playing or not playing in the EL. By the way I don't see it as a matter of balls. Nobody gives a sh*t about what I have to say about that since I'm noone and nobody knows me :D. I am truly mesmerized by all your achievements within and beyond gomoku yet once more - I treat the thing as a general principle, if it was anyone else, I would act the same. If you wanna play, I'm happy to play with you, but I do honor the rules of this competition. This particular rule serves as a prevention and I can see some sense to it, that's why I support its application. Surely the rules may change in your favor and if they do and they are reasonable, I will respect it.
2021-01-05 20:45:49 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7190
I am posting the full results of the survey conducted by the EL Committee.

The question of the survey was: ''Is it ok for your team that Sandra Jones plays in EL under this pseudonym without revealing her real name?''

Mano Gyenei (7up): YES
Zoltan Laszlo (Black and White): NO
Jan Purkrabek (Czech Payback): NO
Matej Holub (Czech Payback B): NO
Robin Holusa (Czech Payback C): NO
Stepan Tesarik (Czech Payback D): NO
Jakub Roubicek (Czech Payback E): NO
Piotr Malowiejski (Dark Team): YES
Marek Gorzecki (Demons and Wizards): NO
Alexey Mikhaylov (Humans-2015): YES
Peter Jonsson (Luffarna): YES
Csaba Kamaras (Only We): YES
Igor Eged (Outsiders): YES
Tatiana Volkova (Thunderstorm): NO
Alexey Lebedev (Wake): YES

The total result is 8-7 in favor of no.

Ashot Avetisyan, the captain of Mind Infinity, was not asked. Not only did he support the idea of me playing in the EL under my pseudonym, but he was also prepared to let me play for his team. And because he accepted me to his team, he was excluded from the survey. Had Ashot been allowed to vote, the total result would have been 8-8.

I thank from the bottom of my heart the captains and teams who voted yes. As of now I will treat all of them as my good friends. Thank you very much for your position. It's a pity that you turned out to be too few.

There's something the gomoku community has to understand very clearly: everyone who contributed to the reversal of the decision to let me play under my pseudonym robbed the gomoku community of my regular tournaments with a monetary prize of 15 Euro for a random participant in each tournament. That is, one tournament per week, 52 tournaments per year, 780 Euro per year. This is what the gomoku community lost as a direct result of the decision reversal.

The thing is that when I publicly announced my decision to organize those tournaments, I made it very clear that they were in return for letting me play in the EL under my pseudonym. My announcement explicitly stated, ''Motivated by such a kind decision, I decided to do something good for the gomoku community in return: starting in January, I will organize a series of regular online tournaments with a monetary prize of 15 Euro in each tournament.'' So there can be no excuse that the captains didn't expect that a reversal of the decision to let me play under my pseudonym would lead to a cancellation of my tournaments. And because the announcement of my tournaments was posted on the EL forum (in addition to the Polish forum, the Russian forum, and my Facebook page), there can be no excuse that the captains were not aware of the announcement.

So once again: the teams that voted against me robbed the community of 52 tournaments per year and monetary prizes of 780 Euro per year, either deliberately or by terrible negligence, because my tournaments had explicitly been tied to the permission to play in the EL under my pseudonym.

Furthermore, the gomoku community has now lost all my future donations altogether.

I believe the gomoku community should value sponsors and organizers. I already donated a few hundred euros for the WBC, did a lot of work to co-organize the WBC, and wrote many articles about gomoku, and I run a Youtube channel about gomoku that has 47 subscribers. The channel is so interesting that people spent as much as one year of viewing time in total. And I asked for a little. No one would get harmed in any way if my request had been fulfilled. I'm not a random anonym. I've been widely known in the gomoku community as Sandra Jones since many years ago and have 67 Facebook friends from the gomoku community. Аs a Western researcher, I must avoid any Internet activity under my real name in order to protect my research career, so I chose a permanent pseudonym for the gomoku community. I am not a strong player and would probably lose much more games than I would win. There's no way I could affect the fight for the top places in any way. I only wanted to enjoy serious games in the gomoku world, a world I had so much contributed to.

I am not asking to reconsider the decision reversal. I have completely lost my desire to play in the EL and make financial and organizational contributions to the gomoku community. I don't want to help a community that has refused to treat me humanly. The fun has been killed. I'll only play on Playok and other servers, chat with close friends from the gomoku community, and write posts when I feel like doing so. I am not leaving the community. I will still be with you. I will merely not make any further financial and organizational contributions.

The purpose of my post is to simply let you know all the facts. I just want you to have full clarity as to how it happened that you lost me as a sponsor and organizer.
2021-01-05 20:23:57 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7189
Usiek, have you as the PSGRiP president decided to ignore my question?

Marek Gorzecki (aka Alicecooper), a member of the PSGRiP board, publicly stated on this forum that I had "tried to blackmail" the PSGRiP. He wrote his post in English, and blackmail is an extremely serious word in the English language and means a criminal offence. To understand how this word is used in English, open the Oxford dictionary of the English language and read the definition of this word: "The action, treated as a criminal offence, of demanding payment or another benefit from someone in return for not revealing compromising or damaging information about them." Link: Sure, this word is occasionally used figuratively, like in "emotional blackmail," but that requires a proper context or hints indicating a figurative use, like the word "emotional." If you simply say that Person A blackmailed or tried to blackmail Organization B, it is always understood in the English language as an accusation of a crime. So Marek's post as it stands is an accusation of a crime, at least from the standpoint of the language his post is written in.

Having been publicly depicted as a criminal by a PSGRiP board member who said you as the PSGRiP president can be asked to confirm his words, I have no other choice but to clarify the matter before the community.

I am therefore formally asking you to officially provide an answer to the following question: Does the PSGRiP consider me to have committed a criminal offence of blackmail against the PSGRiP? To put it simply: does the PSGRiP consider me a criminal?
2021-01-05 20:19:29 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7188
Frantisek, you didn't answer my question whether you trust that Marek Gorzecki aka Alicecopper isn't a cheater. If you trust players who provide real names, then tell us that you trust that Alicecooper isn't a cheater. Come on, tell us. He provided his real name. So tell us that you trust that he isn't a cheater. Can you? Let's see whether you've got the balls to publicly answer this question.

I am astonished by you comparing me with an anonym who "may appear, cheat and then vanish back to the void." I've been widely known in the gomoku community as Sandra Jones since many years ago and have 67 Facebook friends from the gomoku community. I consider some of them to be really good friends and regularly chat with them. Аs a Western researcher, I must avoid any Internet activity under my real name in order to protect my research career, so I chose a permanent pseudonym for the gomoku community. I already donated a few hundred euros for the WBC, did a lot of work to co-organize the WBC, and wrote many articles about gomoku, and I run a Youtube channel about gomoku that has 47 subscribers. The channel is so interesting that people spent as much as one year of viewing time in total. Are you really suggesting I did all that to "cheat and vanish back in the void"?

And I'm disappointed by your failure to see the link between donating money and playing fair. In short, if a person sacrifices own money and time to popularize gomoku, he or she truly loves the game, and such people won't cheat. They know what they are doing, are not driven by a need of self-affirmation, and won't even have subconscious urges to cheat, let alone succumb to them. If you can't understand that, you don't really love the game.
2020-12-30 16:49:39 František Fňukal (payzel)
RE: The decisions
# 7186
These questions are somewhat out of the frame of the issue. Of course we could discuss cheating as a matter of its own since it is probably the biggest concern in online competitions and so hard to prove if performed subtly. The truth is if Alice or any other person got convicted of cheating by a chance, it would leave a permanent stain on their reputation with them being widely known amongst the community. On the other hand an anonym may appear, cheat and then vanish back to the void. As to the last question - I don't quite see the causality between devotion/donating money and the probability of not cheating.
2020-12-27 16:37:13 Ashot Avetisyan (ashot)
RE: The decisions
# 7185
Sandra I don’t want to discuss it correctly or not, I’m just saying that you are a very good Person
2020-12-27 13:39:31 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7184
Frantisek, you say you don't trust anonyms. Do you trust people who play under their real names? Do you trust Marek Gorzecki aka Alicecooper? Do you trust that he is not a cheater?

Who is more likely to cheat - the Polish guy who was publicly accused of cheating by Osipov, Kondratiev, Kozhin, Muratov, and Menesi, or the anonym who loves the game so much that she has already donated a few hundred euros for gomoku?
2020-12-27 12:55:05 František Fňukal (payzel)
RE: The decisions
# 7183
Well I personally treat this as a general principle. So whatever the reasons may be, be it cheating or account duplicity, it applies (or should apply according to me, since we are even discussing this) to everyone. I don't go over the rules and seek for reasons why this or that wouldn't apply to a particular person. Even after my previous comment, you keep relating it to yourself, so once again - It does not necessarily have to do with you as a person. With all respect to your contribution, I don't trust anonyms. The first thing I would expect you to reply would be: "But what about "Andrzej Kostecki" etc." Well yes, I definitely admit that violation of the rule might have unknowingly happened, but treating the rule with "It was violated in the past, so let's violate it further more anyway" is not exactly a way to consistency.
2020-12-26 23:16:46 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7182
In view of the reversal of the decision to let me play in the EL under my pseudonym, I reverse my decision to organize regular online tournaments with a monetary prize of 15 Euro to be awarded in each tournament to a random participant.

When I announced my decision to organize such tournaments, I made it very clear that it was in return for letting me play in the EL under my pseudonym.

I feel that if the community is unwilling to do me even such a little favor, I shouldn't be willing to commit myself to such regular financial donations and organizational work.
2020-12-26 16:05:11 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7181
František, what bad thing that the real-name rule is supposed to prevent are you afraid of in my case? Cheating? Being a clone of another EL participant? Or what?
2020-12-26 12:52:03 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7179
I find Alicecooper's last statement to be a totally false allegation, and I'm surprised he says the PSGRiP's president will confirm. So let's ask the PSGRiP's president. Usiek, did I blackmail the PSGRiP?
2020-12-26 12:36:46 František Fňukal (payzel)
RE: The decisions
# 7178
Hey homie. What one grown Australian prominent quantum mechanics Nobel laureate doesn't understand is that there are some rules to the Euroleague, one of which is forbidding players to play under a fake name. I do not by any means neglect the fact this rule might have been violated in the past due to some sloppiness on the organizers' part. However as it happens, your case is in a direct conflict with this very rule making it sort of a serious thing in our boring lives. And as a matter of fact, being so, it doesn't happen to be decided by one Iec, but by a whole bunch of Eastern European hillbillies who form the EL, some of which are simply too reluctant to see the rules pass right in between their fingers and who want to preserve at least some integrity to the competition. I don't say the EL has been perfect, there surely were cheaters caught red-handed in the past, there might still be some, there might have been other minor or major violations to the rules. But who knows - next year some Sándor Johansson might come and ask us to play with multiple accounts because of something and we will make the rules looser and looser until there are no rules at all. Some people just choose imperfect rules over no rules. The thing is these guys' stance doesn't necessarily have to do with any sympathy towards you. I surely do appreciate your efforts to promote the game and to make it more fun for us to play, however I have a quite strict stance in such a case. I hope your huge brain has enough capacity to pick up on all these stimuli, but all in all what am I even saying - I'm just this ignorant Eastern European bumpkin whose biggest life achievement was they stopped taking a dump onto the ground :)
2020-12-26 10:24:51 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: The decisions
# 7177
Maybe this person did some good things, but I know for sure how many bad things they did, for example recently they tried to blackmail the Polish gomoku association. That is why I strongly protest against any participation of sandra in Euroleague. (the committee may ask our president if this is true)
2020-12-25 16:42:16 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7176
Hey homies, I want to put my cards on the table. What many babies in the gomoku community don't understand is that as a researcher in the West, you can easily be kicked out of your job for a racist, sexist, or politically incorrect post. That's something many gomoku players haven't even heard about, for they have always been sitting on their asses in Eastern European countries. A Western researcher must behave like a politician, carefully choosing every word. Even more carefully than Angst does. And now have a look at some jokes I made in my posts for the gomoku and renju communities:

> An Afro-American receives a sharp opening and chooses black. The opponent says, "You are going to lose." "Why?" "Because you are black."

> China, 2017, a labour camp, prisoners are following the AT of the Renju World Championship through a radio. One round is remaining, and Zhu Jianfeng has to play the decisive game, which decides whether he gets gold. A guard finds the radio and confiscates it. So when a new prisoner comes in, they ask him, "What happened in the Renju World Championship?" "I lost."

I cringe to think what would happen if my gomoku posts got connected to my real name and my real-world reputation in the West. That's why I can't reveal my real name. And that's the exceptional circumstances under which I asked for permission to play under a pseudonym.

I did many good things for the gomoku community, including writing many articles, helping organize the WBC, and donating a few hundred euros for the WBC. And I thought the gomoku community could do me such a little favor.
2020-12-24 16:47:52 Ashot Avetisyan (ashot)
RE: Sandra Jones is a genuine person
# 7175
Dear committee, please tell me Sandra will play in my team or not? will you allow her to play under that name or not? I respect your laws but what are you planning to do tell me quickly
2020-12-23 13:20:07 Zoltán László (scavenger)
Season 20/21
# 7174
Dear All,

I would like to inform you that the season starts on 28th Dec, as well as ELC will publish the decision of the disputed case regarding the participation of Sandra Jones.
2020-12-22 17:56:37 Łukasz Majksner (scammer)
RE: Sandra Jones is a genuine person
# 7173
Of course I did, Ilya, have you ever doubted that? :)

To be more serious, I'm sure you know what I meant - Sandra is not a copy of anybody whose appearance is known to me.

To clarify, the aim of my comments is not to enforce anything related to Sandra's participation in the competition. My message is addressed to the community rather than the ELC. I merely expressed my own conclusions because I found them reasonable and necessary.
2020-12-22 11:19:27 Ilya Katsev (bromozel)
RE: Sandra Jones is a genuine person
# 7172
How can you confirm about "not a copy of anybody"? Did you see photos of all women in gomoku community? o_O
2020-12-21 18:53:22 Łukasz Majksner (scammer)
Sandra Jones is a genuine person
# 7171
To complete my message from yesterday, I would like to say that Sandra Jones decided to provide me some evidence confirming that she is a genuine person, and a woman. The photo I received is confidential, so I cannot show it to anyone, but I confirm that Sandra is indeed a woman, and not a copy of anybody. Sandra also provided a proof that it is her photo indeed.

Whatever the Euroleague Committee finally decides on this case, I find the above mentioned detail important in terms of the gomoku community's composure and well-being.
2020-12-21 13:06:40 Tatiana Volkova (1dalida1)
Let's start the season on December 21!
# 7170
Dear EL Committee,

Let's start the season on December 21!

best regards,
2020-12-21 08:04:37 Pavel Laube (kedlub)
RE: The decisions
# 7169
Dear EL Committee,
it would be very nice to finally start the season - and even better if it can be done according to valid rules. I through EL is a competition for non-anonymous players and I still do not see a reason to change it.
Thank you.
2020-12-21 06:46:48 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: The decisions
# 7168
if you play Euroleague with the camera on the back and the screen, I support it
2020-12-20 18:59:56 Sandra Jones (sandra)
RE: The decisions
# 7167
If I play such a match with Alicecooper, showing only my back and display, will I ultimately and irreversibly be allowed to anonymously play in the EL under my pseudonym Sandra Jones without having to provide my actual name to anyone whomsoever?
2020-12-20 17:52:54 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: The decisions
# 7166
I, of course, can and agree to play with cameras from either side
2020-12-20 17:23:53 Łukasz Majksner (scammer)
RE: The decisions
# 7165
I did not plan to share my position in this case, as it does not concern me personally, but having realised how far the conflict escalated, I decided to write a few words.

I will try to be as objective as possible, acting neither as anyone's friend or any team's member.

First of all, popularising gomoku by any means is a good thing, and our goal as both organisers and players should be to make this game as popular and competitive as possible, trying to not put our personal conflicts above common sense and enjoyment of the game.

What I know about this case (if I am wrong, please correct me):
1. Sandra Jones was invited (!) to participate in Euroleague as a team member.
2. The EL rules were against that, as they strictly forbade playing under a fake name.
3. Sandra Jones, willing to join the competition, asked the Committee to exceptionally let her play under the name "Sandra Jones" which she had been using for many years in the gomoku community.
4. The Euroleague Committee decided to exceptionally allow Sandra Jones to play under her pseudonym, after approving the requested evidence of Sandra being a real person (as they claimed within the decision).
5. After the Committee's decision Sandra Jones joined the team "MIND INFINITY." led by Ashot Avetisyan.
6. Some players protested and asked the Euroleague Committee to revisit the case.
7. The Euroleague Committee postponed the start of the new EL season by one week.
8. The case has been continued and will reach its end tonight (most likely).

What I have to say:
1. The above mentioned decision of the Euroleague Committee was made just 2 days before the declared start of the new season. Team captains were not informed about it straight away, which means that at least some of them had no real chance to get to know about it and react properly (in particular, complain about it).
2. The above mentioned decision was based on Clause 15.1 of the Euroleague rules: "The Organizers of EL are allowed to change the EL Rules or make exceptions to the rules, if a situation requires this. This should only be used in exceptional circumstances". Unfortunately the Euroleague Committee did not ground it properly, i.e. did not explicitly say why Sandra Jones's case was exceptional and what exactly caused the organisers to allow her to play under her pseudonym. In my opinion such approach is a bit unprofessional and I am not suprised that it caused some angry reactions within the gomoku community, especially taking into account some of Sandra's questionable actions in the past.
3. Personally I do not see a problem with allowing Sandra to play, the problem is with the wrong procedure. If the decision was taken openly, with full transparency, I am sure its perception among other players would be different.

What I propose to do to resolve this issue:
1. Postpone the start of the new EL season by additional two weeks - it's not a big problem, taking into account the upcoming Christmas - New Year holidays when many people are busy with their family life anyway.
2. Write a new, more detailed decision explaining why Sandra is allowed to play under her pseudonym and publish it at least a week before the start of the new season.
3. Notify all team captains about the decision immediately after publishing it.
4. Update the Euroleague Rules (especially Clause 2.4) accordingly, i.e. provide strict conditions that will let you allow players to play under a pseudonym in the future.

BTW, to resolve Alicecooper - Sandra conflict, I suggest organizing an online match between them, where they will be obligated to turn on their webcams. It would be enough if the webcams showed their backs and displays. In this case any doubts both players have against each other can be easily dispelled (of course if both of them agree to play such a match).

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone!
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