| 2010-04-07 17:13:05 • Michał Żukowski (zukolepl) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4800 |
| Zagrali fair i z duchem gry, tak w przeszłości zdarzało się kilkanaście razy ( przytoczyłem wątek z ice cube i woodenheads ), problem w tym wypadku był taki, że jedna gra decydowała o wygranej bądź remisie. Jakby nie to, to nikt by nie protestował. No ale przecież bardziej liczą się pkt i wygrana niż gra fair ;0
PS Guzik mnie obchodzi że napisałem po polsku, jak to tornitus napisał, polska strona - polski punkt myślenia, więc i polski język na forum też może być ;-0 Zukole. | |
| 2010-04-07 16:30:19 • Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4798 |
| I tried to explain why I decided in that way. I'm really sorry if it is weird, stupid, strange or funny for anyone here, but that was the reasoning. I don't have to explain, but felt obliged to do this as issue seems to be controversial.
I have no problem with the situation when other people see some things in different way as it is natural. However, I needed to vote and I voted according to my understanding of situation. Unfortunately, it seems you don't understand my explanations. I regret that Zathras didn't respond (as Morph did), but it doesn't mean I need to teach captains and other players what to write here. I had limited knowledge in the moment of voting and there was no statement of Zathras that seemed to me a little bit strange, especially after Morph's comments. I understand Mollo's policy, but why Tornitus made his statements if they agreed to communicate by their captain in this case? Summarising, I needed to decide and decided. Maybe my decision is not popular, maybe I was wrong from your perspective. However, I don't feel guilty because of it as I decided according to my sense of fair play. Finally, I really can't leave with no comment suggestion on my special power here in the Committee. I really appreciate work done by my colleagues, despite we had different opinions many times. I have never tried to persuade them to change their mind in any way different than logical (from my perspective) argumentation and if you suggest their could act under my influence, it is really unfair to them. Kind regards, Angst | |
| 2010-04-07 15:15:27 • Riku Kuokka (tornitus) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4797 |
| And as I said earlier, [post # 4782] dont take it too offensively, I dont mean it like that.
kind regards, tornitus | |
| 2010-04-07 15:07:41 • Riku Kuokka (tornitus) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4796 |
| How come everyone else seems to think it should have been our win but the committee? Maybe Angst has too much power over every other parts of committee.. but i cant know that, im just wondering. | |
| 2010-04-07 14:35:25 • Jan Kopecký (whdeafbat) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4795 |
| I forgot to add one flaw I see in the decision, let me quote iec:
"match score was counted including this game by zukole and nobody protested until the end of match, thus KR also was given false hope that they are fighting for draw, they might also choose different tactics if the score was different." As far as I know, there is no EL rule which appoints zukole to be the official EL score counter and no EL rule says "if you don't agree with the score of your match written by zukole you have to stop the match and argue". Zukole can count and post score just as any other player with kurnik nick, what zukole or any other player posts during the match on public chat has no validity and is absolutely irrelevant. If KR "was given false hope that they are fighting for draw", it's only their and zukole's fault, it's not fault of TM. | |
| 2010-04-07 14:18:17 • Jan Kopecký (whdeafbat) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4794 |
| I really wonder how did the committe draw the conclusion that "it becomes clear that there was gentlemen's agreement between them" because opposite seems to be the truth according to Team Mollo, there is zillion posts by Marko Pellikka and Riku Kuokka which are consistently saying: "zathras wanted his 2 wins and played the 3rd game just in case it's needed". It is crystal clear there was no gentleman agreement whatsoever, basically it's word of KR players against word of TM players and in such case, it should be KR who has to show us a proof that it was a gentleman agreement. There's no such proof as far as I know.
Another thing, since angst mentioned the rule "5.3.A team match consists of individual matches. In every individual match 2 players meet each other and they play 2 games where they start one game each." it is obvious that the committe's decision absolutely ignores this rule since out of those 3 games which zathras and morph played, committe decided to count 2 games started by zathras and 0 games started by morph. This rule clearly states that each player starts one game, i.e. the game started by morph must count as EL game according to EL rules. | |
| 2010-04-07 14:03:30 • Pavel Laube (kedlub) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4793 |
| Truely, I don't argue with the committe decision in itself, it's complicated case indeed. But the way of argumentation seems to me really weird, especially that one from Angst! To argue that "there was no statement from Zathras", is beyond my understanding, as Marko has written here already sheets of paper, where he clearly repeated their stance that it was not Zathras intention to lose his win from the first game..(Pity that I wasn't there,I still wonder how that "gentlemen agreement" looked like..). And as a captain it is clear that he speaks for Zathras in this forum, so I fully understand his wondering.. | |
| 2010-04-07 12:08:54 • Costinas Beniamin (vlh_dragon) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4792 |
| There's a incy bincy detail that slips my mind . How come all the players (but all that don't belong to the jury ) saw the result so clear (Team Mollo winning) and their comments were so easily neglected ? | |
| 2010-04-07 11:36:31 • Marko Pellikka (pellikka) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4791 |
| We had a discussion about this matter as a team. As a captain I was representing all the team here. So if you would have seen necessary to see testimony by zathras himself it would have been nice that you would have approached either me or him that without his comments there is no chance for verdict to be on our side. Common sense said that we had nothing to worry about, so in this case we feel like surprised pants down without a warning.
Practically you are saying, that because the third game was played, there must have been gentlemen's agreement. All other goes to evidence category mentioned earlier. So according to this I would tell you that this was not a special case of any sort. You need to make a rule saying: "That if third game between paired couple is played, it's automatically considered as a rematch.". | |
| 2010-04-07 10:40:41 • Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4790 |
| What evidence would you expect?
There was statement from Morph and no statement from Zathras (he didn't deny Morph's version - why?). Third game is visible in the statistics. In this light it becomes clear that there was gentlemen's agreement between them. Kind regards, Angst | |
| 2010-04-07 06:38:26 • Marko Pellikka (pellikka) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4789 |
| Just wonder why without proper evidence this was turned to their favor. Without evidence I would have even understood somehow just marking the game totally non-played or draw. But because even this wouldn't have changed the match result, it's easy to see how some people might come up with unnecessary comments against some nationality.
I want to believe that the committee was unbiased and did their best in this matter. So the thing what is left for me is my opinion. I also want to apologize to my team. Probably I could have done something better... | |
| 2010-04-07 00:22:06 • Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4788 |
| Ondik,
"5.3.A team match consists of individual matches. In every individual match 2 players meet each other and they play 2 games where they start one game each." - that's why we needed to decide which games are valid. Neither if Vilu is acting childish nor if Olsava is fair player (no doubt from my side) that wasn't the case. Kind regards, Angst | |
| 2010-04-07 00:16:07 • Riku Kuokka (tornitus) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4787 |
| Ondik, i think there is nothing to be done anymore. Sometimes people just screw the rules, too bad that it had to happen now and here. But it happens in every game sometimes, so let's focus on the next upcoming matches. | |
| 2010-04-06 23:49:54 • Ondrej Nykl (pandik1) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4786 |
| "As one of them has been repeated" - this is KR's statement, TM's statement includes the "JUST IN CASE" thing and if i'm not mistaken there's not enough evidence to confirm either of these statements.
"I assume we can't count results of three games" - why, because it's not possible to write such result into match results system? Is it written in rules? When nobody confirmed TM accepted to play the first game again AND don't count the original game, you just can't ignore the result of first one. PS: you (and i'm sure lot of people who've been around for a while) know exactly what I mean with those "polish kids", just see vilumisiek's first response. And it's not the first time (Olsava's post, and i guess we all can agree she's one of the most mannered player) | |
| 2010-04-06 23:04:44 • Michał Wileczek (krvilumisiek) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4785 |
| zajebiście | |
| 2010-04-06 22:51:47 • Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4784 |
| Riku,
You're right. I probably shouldn't reply to silly comments, but hoped next time you will think twice what you would like to write. Ondik, I assume we can't count results of three games. As one of them has been repeated, we decided that last one is valid. Best regards, Angst P.S. Watch out! Polish kids will come to see Czech and Finnish adults playing :) | |
| 2010-04-06 22:16:35 • Riku Kuokka (tornitus) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4782 |
| Didn't say the country is the problem, i just meant that of course you support your landmates. Sorry if i expressed myself incorrectly.
For example: If there is just swedish witnesses, of course they say its a swedish victory? Or if you just listen american opinions, of course you start to think that america's opinions are right. No offense, man, dont understand everything so offensively. | |
| 2010-04-06 21:41:09 • Ondrej Nykl (pandik1) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4781 |
| Polish kids being out of line and making troubles once again.
Too bad such behaviour gets supported by comitee. Neither side's version could be confirmed, it's beyond my understanding how the rule 5.7 could have been overlooked then. | |
| 2010-04-06 20:34:25 • Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4780 |
| Riku,
Do you have any problem with Poland? Hopefully for Finland, probably almost everyone here is too wise to judge country by one of its citizens behaviour. Maybe it's good time to grow up? Regards, Angst | |
| 2010-04-06 19:50:22 • Riku Kuokka (tornitus) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4779 |
| Polish site.. polish witnesses.. polish opinions.. of course its a poland-winning- situation! even if the both captains dont agree it to be EL-game..
So why so surprised, Attila? :) | |
| 2010-04-06 17:25 • Attila Demján (bcattila) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4778 |
| Very surprising decision:O
Zukole: Gadael vs me case: It's him, who had net problem, not me. I agreed to play a new game and I knew the rules and we both agreed to count the new game. And I was the captain... Plus, the result didn't matter. So who is funny?:) I think the committe should reform the rules in order to avoid such conflicts in the future. | |
| 2010-04-06 16:15:30 • Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4777 |
| Dear All,
We couldn't wait longer with taking the final decision. As Igor said it was really hard issue and we all probably shall agree that there were strong arguments for both considered solutions. KR statement was not enough obviously. However, Zathras didn't deny their version and we all can see three games in the statistics (third game the same moves like in the first one). Maybe I'm wrong, but I find Zathras as really fair player and I regret that we need to mention him in almost every message... This case should not be treated as a precedent. Such an issue is not clearly regulated in the rules, hence EL Committee probably would need to decide independently in possible further similar situations, having in mind specificity of any particular case. What can I say more is that in my opinion gentlemen's agreement between players is above captain's will (there is no problem to discuss it with captain before) as the team shall establish their own forms of communication. The decision was not unanimous, however now this case is closed. I would appreciate if you could focus on the new round. Kind regards, Piotr | |
| 2010-04-06 15:59:51 • Marko Pellikka (pellikka) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4776 |
| Oops. You have made the decision already. Ok then, I just can't still understand how you came up with such verdict. Maybe it's possible if you think that it was our team who was to prove otherwise (which in my opinion shouldn't have been the case) and if the time spent is not as meaningful as number of moves played (as can be seen from Igor's reasoning).
Well, what has happened has happened. Would be nice if you can polish the rules about this matter for following season. P.S. Doesn't writing in main lobby result making your nick blink grey? P.P.S. Would have been nice to discuss this issue further. I was available all day on Sunday and Monday. Today I was busy on work trip. | |
| 2010-04-06 15:45:59 • Marko Pellikka (pellikka) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4775 |
| As I said earlier, it was asked in the game room if the extra point could be given. At least samsaa from our team was watching the games. The third game was played just in case.
My games lasted longer and I wasn't even aware that the third game was going when I jumped to the game of zathras. So I would like to see some witness telling that the third game was played with a purpose to replay the first game. Before that I don't accept that the third game being counted. At the moment the only things witnessing the validity of third game have been comments from KR side. Is that enough for them? | |
| 2010-04-06 15:07:56 • Igor Eged (ancientdragon) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4772 |
| Just to be more precise:
I mean noone can demand new game after disconnect or insult the opponent if he doesn't want to replay, of course if the game is in later stadium this is not even advised to replay but if it is just few moves and players really come to agreement, it is possible. Next time please, consult this with captains first. And when I wrote about consulting with captains, I mean just this scenario, but player should never ask anyone about his opinion about his position when game is still running of course, maximum he can ask is about match score to decide if the draw is ok for match score, not about his position, that would be strongly unfair. A player should not communicate with anyone using private messages during the match, if someone is interested in match score, he can ask on main chat. Also captain usually is paralelly playing his game, so it is not ok to demand something from him if he is still playing. But if a player makes his decision, he also takes the consequences, that's why it is better either to not replay disconnected games at all or that captain respects player's decision and if he replays, simply accept that fact and count the game. | |
| 2010-04-06 14:50:57 • Igor Eged (ancientdragon) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4771 |
| Well, the game mentioned by zukole was other situation - there was no objection and if it is agreed by both teams, it is valid.
But I don't see the situation as clear as Attila, not at all. Of course there is no automatic right to replay the game after disconnect, but if the players agree to play another game instead, it is possible. And about particular game decide both players. If the player offers draw and is accepted, it is draw even if captain protests and says he had winning position, the same if a player resigns and captain doesnt agree. The player should consult this with captain first, but if he doesn't, it's his problem. Well, KR really didn't provide a complete reasoning and explanation, that's why committee members themself had to investigate instead. But there are also many arguments that say that 16-16 would be fair in this case. For example: - both players agreed about playing third game instead of first, interrupted by disconnection after few moves - all other games were finished and players observed the third game, noone objected or demanded interruption of this now "illegal" game as invalid and continuation of the match - match score was counted including this game by zukole and nobody protested until the end of match, thus KR also was given false hope that they are fighting for draw, they might also choose different tactics if the score was different. So there IS a reason, why this decision is not easy, Attila... | |
| 2010-04-06 13:50:27 • Michał Żukowski (zukolepl) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4770 |
| Attila, in season 2006/07 yours games with whgadael ( Woodenheads ) - http://www.euroleague.cz/php/resultdetails.php?pai=146. You played three games, because you had problem with internet - http://forum.gomoku.pl/viewtopic.php?p=27462&highlight=#27462. So, this argument is funny. | |
| 2010-04-06 13:29:39 • Attila Demján (bcattila) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4769 |
| Hello all,
I don't really understand how could such situation grow this big. I understand both teams but I don't see why committee can not decide the result. For me, it is obvious that the result is 17:15, because the first 2 games was won by zathras against morph. Since euroleague is an online competition, the circumstances can not be clear enough to make everything as fair as it should be. There are many players who are losing net connection and losing precious points on it. So what? That can happen to anyone... Our team, Barbe Cube lost many games because of bad connection, but we can not do anything against it, only trying to fix the connection, not replaying any game... What happens if the connection of morph is lost in the 3rd game? They play a 4th game? And they play games until someone reaches 5 in a row? All players should count with losing connection, this is why online gaming has some defects. And even if zathras agreed to play the 3rd game, the CAPTAINS should have agreed to count the result of 3rd game instead of the 1st. If it didn't happen, I mean if the 2 captains did not know about the intention of morph and zathras, the 3rd game should not be considered as a EL game. Without the agreement of the two captains, players should not do anything on their own, especially if the rules are not clear for them. If committee decides the result as a draw, it will be possible in the future to say for my opponent that my connection is bad (especially if I have bad position on the board) and ask for a new game. It would be so nonsense and bad, moreover committe would support unfair gaming which would result more and more conflicts. Ah, and for last, I really miss the concrete and polite explanation from Klub Rzeszow. They didn't really explain their intention, only wrote 1-2 sentences, like "you should be happy for draw". Considering this all, I don't see any reason to make this game 16:16. I hope you can fix the problem and we can start the 8th round. Best regards, Attila | |
| 2010-04-06 13:07:36 • Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4768 |
| How can both teams tell the truth, if they cant confirm the final result?? | |
| 2010-04-06 11:47:07 • Riku Kuokka (tornitus) | |
RE: Klub Rzeszow - Team Mollo | # 4767 |
| Both teams are telling the truth, but both also have different opinions. In my opinion 2 games matter, and if we say that third game was non-EL-game, then it isnt EL game. As Costinas said, KR is at our mercy, because 2 games matter.
And also, the rule says: "5.7.A player gains 1 game point for each won game." So zathras gets 2 points from the first 2 victories. | |