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Forum: Euroleague - results

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2011-01-15 02:32:38 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: break in match
# 5302
1) i agree with cr_partak: it is bad idea to back to past
2) i understand that Lords have to right to use rules for their best business
3) but i understand too, anger of my team mates as they are convinced about win

so i apologize for any of my bad words (and my mates)
and propose to play rematch after this season (for sure that both teams will find time)
2011-01-15 00:51:58 Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst)
RE: break in match
# 5300
P.S. I still believe that The Lords of XO will decide to play against D&W. It would be really the best end of this story, moreover purifying for many of us :)
2011-01-15 00:47:16 Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst)
RE: break in match
# 5299
I agree with Attila in many aspects, but not with every one.

First of all, I would like to comment all remarks regarding current EL rules. Everyone who has ever tried to create any rules, contract, etc. knows that it is impossible to make it perfect. There are always unusual situations impossible to predict etc. On other hand, when everything is all right and people behave fair and politely we don't need any rules. Unfortunately, people don't behave like this. This is why rules are necessary.

Case of D&W shows that current rules are not perfect (that is obvious as I mentioned before). Frankly speaking I feel disappointed and can only apologize D&W, as a member of EL Committee (this is almost tragical situation - we know what we should decide, but on other hand we must obey the rules).

This case forced me to analyze deeply EL Rules once again to find similar errors to be repaired for next seasons. I hope to finish it soon to start discussion on Committee forum to establish new rules before the beginning of another season. I know that other Committee members also would like to change something, so we are open for any of your suggestions (it could be just simple language correction, rule modification or EL base revolution, as Attila's proposition ;)).

This is not first time when we discuss dividing teams into groups. I don't know yet if it is good idea or not. Probably we can't avoid any modifications as everything shall be improving. I'm just wondering if there will be many teams interested to compete in C or D League? Maybe in a few years there will be just YC, VLH and D&W competing? :) I would rather support play-off idea (4, 6 or 8 best teams qualify to round-robin group to decide final order). Do we really want to cut off the possibility to play vs gomoku stars (unfortunately many of them don't participate in NT tournaments)? Is it good for gomoku popularity?

Last thing is that I doubt in troubles avoiding because of less number of teams competing - aren't D&W and LOX ~ top6/8 currently? :)

I'm really interested in your opinions.

Kind regards,

Angst
2011-01-15 00:13:34 Attila Demján (ycattila)
RE: break in match
# 5298
I thought I am gonna write some lines about the current situation...

First of all, I am really sad and disappointed about the 3rd round. Ridiculous accusement of cheating and unfinished game between 2 title claimer teams. These are not the reasons why we all play Euroleague. Our primary vision should be to be fair, play gomoku and enjoy the game, the competition. We are not playing for thousands of $s. Everyone knows who is a good player, who isnt, none of us needs to cheat to misguide anyone else abour our true skills. Why this all is happening?

1st issue: The accusement of fire2fire. I think this issue is going to be finished soon as the commitee will decide. I already wrote my comments about it, no need to add anything.

2nd issue: I didn't want to comment it due several reasons. It is just so simply overhyped and "boring". I mean there are rules, those are set for such occassions. DW (supposed to be the winning team) is very unlucky (can't find a better word) now who can't do much, and LXO is probably against fair play and same time against our international community, but still they are 100% correct, they are behaving accurately according to the set rules! This is a contradiction, isn't it?

If I would be the judge here, I would push LXO to agree to replay the match (starting from 0-0!), but if they wouldn't wish to do it, I would accept it too. As I said, unfortunately DW can not do anything but hope for LXO's rematch accept. I hope in case of tie DW will continue to struggle in EL and move on and LXO will maybe learn something from this situation concerning fair play.

This situation just shows us that something is wrong in Euroleague's rule system, or - better to say - not as good as possible.

If we suppose that D&W would win this match 10 out of 10 times, we would just steal 0,5 pts from them and add 0,5 pts for LXO, and this would be very unfair against other competiting teams and DW of course.
But I don't think that D&W would win 10 times out of 10, maybe just 6 or 7, doesn't matter in fact. Obviously, a better example would be if team nr1 would play with team nr30 and same stuff would happen. Everyone would feel the draw as a mistaken decision, because team nr1 will NEVER lose to team nr30. That should tell my opinion about it.

So what I say is that making this game draw is not fair and is against everyone else but one team.
Since making a rematch has to be approved by both teams, and it is very complicated to replay it in the next round or anytime, a quick idea came to my mind...

This issue can't be solved correctly enough in Swiss system. That is the biggest defect of Euroleague in my opinion, the system we play in.

I suggest and I will probably suggest later with more details to play in ROUND ROBIN system from the coming season.
Imagine, there would be like A, B and C leagues, each would contain 6-10 teams and all teams should play against all others, only in the same group of course.
What we would miss then, is the chance that strong teams could not play with weak ones, and that's all! But we would not have such EL destroying conflicts and hard discussions about rules, luck and fair play. Moreover the competition would be more effective, interesting and tense and no result would be based on the pairing of 1st round and stuff like that. Even if the server crashes, our deadlines would let us easily repeat anything. In addition, 3 teams could be the champion by the end of a season (supposing we have 3 leagues). The issue of newly joining teams could be also easily solveable, such as the change of stable teams between the leagues.
(More details and concrete ideas about new playing system will be coming soon by me if I find it worthy)

I ask everyone to think about this suggestion instead of attacking each other and let's discuss it all together in the near future. Because if we would agree, we should decide the system details as soon as possible.

Best wishes,

Attila
2011-01-14 16:52:30 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: break in match
# 5293
Gabor excuse me but You (and Your team) are really last presons to critize DaW after Your behavior for my team in past seasons.

And You are liar becouse in past seasons was other rules than today
And we have win (+/-) and despite this we agree to play rematch !! (only becouse we want play)
And we really have no time to play 3rd time
2011-01-14 16:19:53 Andrey Sviridov (cr_spartak)
RE: break in match
# 5291
Gabor, i should add a remark that in Season 2006/2007 there was not rule 7.8. It was born after case you have described. Also i don't find good idea to wash again past cases as it easily can lead to senseless discussion.
2011-01-14 15:27:22 Piotr Małowiejski (dt_angst)
RE: break in match
# 5290
But I don't like it.

In my opinion it would be fair to mention that before Kurnik's failure that day D&W agreed to play vs IC, despite the fact they could receive +/- without playing.

Moreover, Committee needed to decide if the score shall be +/- or 0,5:0,5.

Maybe it is not so important, who knows...

Kind regards,

Angst
2011-01-14 13:59:09 Honza Bielák (olgoj)
RE: break in match
# 5288
Like it:)
2011-01-14 12:58:42 Gábor Gyenes (ycgabor)
RE: break in match
# 5286
Dear angry players from both sides,

I can't stop myself to tell our situation with DaW, but I should...
Unfortunately, this is not the first case for the DaW. This old strategy is made up by DaW and now the Lords use it again. How does it feel like, DaW?

Season 2006/2007, 2nd week of the 4th round, Ice Cube - Demons and Wizards:
After the first round the kurnik was down and we were not able to back in 30 minutes. We wanted a rematch, but Marek (alicecooper) said there were no good date for them. BUT!!! Two days later !!5!! of DaW member were online in the same time for hours. (You can ask yourself what unfair is except that lie(?). I had some screenshot about that (in a player's statistics you can see how long he/she was online the last time), but the commitee didn't do anything else, only what is in the rules, so it became draw. According to the rules the DaW had the possibility for draw and they used it. This is the same situation, isn't it? The Lords have this possibility too.

I'd like to ask every DaW member not to accuse the Lords with anything! This is like "He can see the splinter in another's eye but cannot see even the beam in his own."
So old DaW members please take it as a lesson. This is not what Jove may do, the ox may not.

Regards,
Gábor
2011-01-13 02:02:58 Alex Popiel (lolamaza)
RE: break in match
# 5271
Now this is already a personal attack which has nothing to do with the relationship between the teams, perhaps, little punk, you should learn from your captain to speak about the matter, not personalities.
2011-01-13 00:49:45 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: break in match
# 5270
Since last Sunday for me you're not Lords. Lords have your honor and you what ?:-)

Sorry, exactly you can not me write about decency.
2011-01-13 00:49:11 Costinas Beniamin (vlh_dragon)
Sure, shoot the messenger.
# 5269
I was just stating the obvious. There is no audiance i am manipulating, as our "scandal: will be judged by the same commitee that will judge yours. Furthermore, i am not directly involved .

Anyways, i like that you ALWAYS FIND solutions to other players' opinions (Sherlock), YET YOU DON"T FIND A MATCH DATE (hahaha, this is quite HILARIOUS :D).

Why don't you simply admit that you don't have the courage to face DAW, thus you hold on to the draw offerd by the rules. I wonder if you behaved the same if you were up against a weaker team, and this situation occured.

And for your information, i have the pesky habbit to write down my opinion whenever i see complete absence of common sense (i did it last year with kr-tm although i had nothing against/for any side).

Keep in mind, that you have now the position of lawyers defending a criminal, and we all know how much those lawyers are loved/respected.
2011-01-13 00:33:24 Alex Popiel (lolamaza)
RE: break in match
# 5268
To Bano:

I'd like to briefly comment on your treatment of the EL rules.

Rule 1.2: Good behavior also presupposes absence of pushing on other players and the Committee, I assume.

Rule 15.1: Well, is your obsession to win at long last the Euroleague an exceptional circumstance? I guess it's just a childish mania, nothing exceptional.
Take it easy.

To Zukole:

"...situation as in match Demons - The Lols"

The Lols? Excuse me, if I call you Mr. Dupowski in public from now on, will you like it? If not, which I assume, please keep some respect to others; public mangling of other peoples' and teams' names characterizes you as a person whose hopeless anger oversteps all bounds of decency.

Control yourself or take out on inanimate objects.
2011-01-12 19:10 Vlad Nipoti (czpaybtc)
RE: break in match
# 5265
Well,

it seems that it can't be helped.

Now everyone can look for the "holes" or "lacks" in the Rules and will misuse it.

I will just remind some sentences from the Rules.

1.2.EL is based on fair plays and good behavior of players.

15.General
15.1. The organizers of GEL are allowed to change the rules or make exceptions to the rules, if a situation requires this. This should only be used in exceptional circumstances.

But 15th rule will probably never be utilized.

Let the best team win this season!
2011-01-12 18:05:07 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: break in match
# 5264
I'm angry. We lost 0,5 point because you're afraid ( play, if you don't agree ).

Why you have seven players, if you can play only one day in round ( 3rd round had 4 weeks ! ). If you haven't time why you play in EL?

I know that rules are rules, but this point is wrong. I can not understand why both captains must agree, later is situation as in match Demons - The Lols.

Best regards,

Zukole.
2011-01-11 20:43:29 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: DaW - LO
# 5256
so, if you played in 7 players, because you don't knew rules is = if is break in match because server is bad? Nice :-)

You don't agree, but you don't play so lol ? Haven't you time? so why i see every day yours players on playok and not on some min, but or some hours ! Nice too ;-)
2011-01-11 19:07:53 Alex Popiel (lolamaza)
RE: DaW - LO
# 5255
Yapping at a maths university lecturer is amazing, especially if it comes out from a little cub's orifice.
Anyway, writing here is a nice try indeed in a futile attempt to distract the audience from the VLH scandal. Well done.
2011-01-11 19:00:09 Tomo Dernovšek (jezek_si)
RE: Oh, this is just precious.
# 5254
A case Crusaders - Polar Bears happened in the season 2006/07 in the 2nd round. Then the rules didnt allow the rematch. The committee has given free hands to the both captains to play or not to play the final super match. But we couldnt force any team to play, because it wouldnt be in accordance with the rules.

On the basis of this case, we changed the rules as are now and there hasnt been any complaint till now. I invited players to write any proposals or ideas on the rules in the past, but there were almost no responses. Before the start of this season Committee also discussed about final four and play-off system, but this change wasnt approved. If you made some ideas acceptable, Committee will certainly discusse about them , but the major changes usually valid before the start of the new season.

Yes, Bano (# 5231), if the result had been 15,5:0,5 and there was server failure, the result would be a draw according to the current rules, take into accordance the rule 5.8. as well. Suggest more appropriate solution. In the matches is also possible turn about, although with small probability. My team (Slov. dr.) came from -10 to -2 (vs. KE in the last season) and lost unlucky in the finish.

I just talk about the rules, not about fairplay...
2011-01-11 18:16:07 Costinas Beniamin (vlh_dragon)
RE: DaW - LO
# 5253
Someone, i won't say who (Ilya Katsev) either has logistics problems, or underestimates our intellect.

"I don't think that it is unfair, because we don't break any rule of EL".
On the contrary ... you don't have to break the rules to be unfair hence your implication is trivial.
Taking advantage of the rules in the manner you do is not just proving lack of fair play, but also of courage, common sense etc. (you should get the point).

"In the first round we got some penalty points ...".
Oh, well ... in that case you may be pardoned. Look everybody, it happened to them too (they got hit by the appliance of the rules, buhu). Completely irrelevant argument. It sounds so childish (I only stole her candy because she has hidden my chocolate).

"It was not so important in the match".
Oh, now we're talking. Finally something true. It was NOT SO IMPORTANT (as it is in your match with DAW).

The rules are simple guidelines, that encourage fair play. Taking them ad litteram does not mean you are fair play. You didn't even consider a rematch, you saw the opportunity and jumped head on.

Why don't you reconsider a rematch ? Why don't you try to be creative, and propose to play the game at the end of EL for example (even if it would turn out not to be possible). Why do you have the behavior of man that found a goldmine(on a diamond island) ?

I assure you, if you are not good enough to beat DAW you can't hope for winning EL. And if that's not what you are targeting (winning EL, like they do) then you have no reason not to reconsider playing the match. Plus, you would make them stumble for nothing.
2011-01-11 18:04:39 Alex Popiel (lolamaza)
RE: DaW - LO
# 5252
Dear fair play devotees:

We respected the rules when I was given penalty points in a situation that meant absolutely nothing; by the way, it happened thanks to watchful Zukole's petition, who can't help prying into what others do. Still we obeyed.

So please respect the rules, too. If you are unhappy with them, you could propose some changes to them for the next season, e.g. for cases like the one that's keeping you up in the night. But please do not forget that fair play also requires absence of any changes to the rules after a competition starts and before it ends.

They say, if my aunt had been a man, then she would have been my uncle.
That's it.
2011-01-11 17:35:57 Ilya Katsev (lobromozel)
DaW - LO
# 5251
I agree that the rules are not optimal. May be it is better to change them in the future.

But I don't agree with words of Kedlub that we had no chances in this match. Last year the team of Kedlub losed two first round against us 5.5:10.5, but won the whole match 16.5:15.5.

We already explained our position, and I don't think that it is unfair, because we don't break any rule of EL. In the first round we got some penalty points because of two games of our 7th player. It was not so important in the match with the result 27:5, but okey, this is the rules!

Also now all our actions are in accordance with the rules.
2011-01-11 17:07:06 Vlad Nipoti (czpaybtc)
RE: Oh, this is just precious.
# 5250
I think we (or the comittee)have got to find rule that will force both teams to play the match. Just like in football. When teams can not play in national league (due to Champions league etc.), they play it in compensatory date. But they do play.

Maybe e.g. after servere failure, the leading team would get 0,5 and the losing 0, it would motivate both teams more or less. Well, of course in case that losing team would lose at any rate, they could reject playing and not caring about the result. It is just a suggestion. You can come up with other better ideas...

If we look back in history like Kedlub, one or two years ago there was case when North Pole forgot about their match (captain's fail or other reasons) with Czech Layback. They asked to play a rematch and they did. It was obvious that Czech Layback would not win in any case, they still played though.

That was a preview of absolute fair play. But times change and so people...
2011-01-11 15:40:48 Pavel Laube (kedlub)
RE: Oh, this is just precious.
# 5248
Oh yes, another sad example of how "friendly" our dear Euroleague could be. I can well imagine how pissed must Demons feel, as they lost a clear win in such a way. No doubt that Lords have just proved that they are ready to do anything to get the point, but...unfortunatelly, they only took advantage of the valid rules.
This is certainly not the first time it has happened. You might remember the third or fourth season, when the server fell down during the match of Polar Bears and Crusaders. Crusaders rejected the rematch and as the both teams won all the other matches, Crus won by Buch the whole competition. Certainly very sad for gomoku. And so is our current example, especially when Lords seemed to lose easily, but.. according to the current rules I don't see any way how to force them to play the rematch. The rule of 30 minutes is obviously not applicable here (viz. lolamaza's message). Do you think it's unacceptable? Suggest better rules then. Or do with the fact that this is an internet competition and we can rely only on the politeness of each other (which is sadly often missing).

Cheers,

Ked
2011-01-11 12:09:17 Costinas Beniamin (vlh_dragon)
Oh, this is just precious.
# 5243
Yesterday i was on the phone with mystartx. We talked about our situation, and he asked me what do i think about your case. I said, that the russian team would most likely take advantage of the situation (since they were being crushed from the begining... 2nd round wasn't looking any brighter either for lords) and i said that would be a in our advantage (Valahia's). But that's a subjective opinion, and a part of our private discussion.

I was not aware of this, i barely responded on our case, yesterday. Now that i see this, it's even funnier. I will summarize my humble opinion as following:

1. The lords of xo seized the opportunity and went for the draw (as i predicted for myself and mystartx). I can understand the judgement from their point of view(it may be the wisest decizion... but the UNFAIR one).
2. I won't say anything about fair play (because i can't find it anywhere in their action).
3. The comitee should not give them satisfaction, and decide a rematch (if not now, after the end of EL).
4. I agree with dredd.

Is it just me that sees "some" similarities in the 2 "special" cases of round 3?
2011-01-10 23:17:20 Michał Żukowski (zukolepl)
RE: Re: break in match (aka nerve storm)
# 5239
I wrote that yours openings was not top secret as wrotes Bromozel, nothing else.

Pls don't write respect, you're not funny.

oh sorry, who has problem with understanding mine english ? :F
2011-01-10 23:12:28 Vlad Nipoti (czpaybtc)
RE: Re: break in match (aka nerve storm)
# 5238
Just one correction.

"And, finally, with respect to the statement on our captain's "too late to play," it must have been about the server that was continuously fading, not the team members. Maybe a misunderstanding between two non-natives of English :)"

It was me, who spoke to your captain. And it understanding of two russian speakers...

But these are just details...

Maybe it is not Zukole's self-confidence but just your lack of confidence.

cdb
2011-01-10 22:54:25 Alex Popiel (lolamaza)
Re: break in match (aka nerve storm)
# 5236
Dear Opponents:

With respect to Zukole's perfect wording mentioning the fact that our team was down after the first round, I can say that the same had happened during the fixture with North Pole, which, however, could not prevent us from winning the whole match. So please do not flatter your self-confidence too much.

With respect to highly esteemed AliceCooper who mentioned the fact that after only 25 minutes the DW players were back on site, I can say that personally I could not and I can prove it with the corresponding data (two automatic print-screens taken on 19.55 CET [My game with Zukole, move 29] and 20.25 CET; and a manually taken print-screen of 20.27 CET) showing that the server was still down, the data being available from me at any time by request.

With respect to another statement by AliceCooper of our captain's presence on the site while all of the other LXO players could not access it, he told us later that he never left the site and it did sometimes refresh for those users who had not abandoned the page. In the meanwhile we were trying to access the site but unfortunately failed to do so due to reasons not depending on us.

And, finally, with respect to the statement on our captain's "too late to play," it must have been about the server that was continuously fading, not the team members. Maybe a misunderstanding between two non-natives of English :)
2011-01-10 22:52:24 Marek Gorzecki (alicecooperpl)
RE: break in match
# 5235
some statistics: (all taken from playok)

cuartodebano lost 18:53 back 19:36 after 43 min
devotionpl lost 18:53 back 19:19 after 26 min
dwgacul lost 18:53 back 19:36 after 43 min
pczukole lost 18:53 back 19:18 after 25 min
alicecooperpl lost 18:53 back 19:22 after 29 min

so we have 3 players ready to play BEFORE 30 min period
2011-01-10 22:41:23 Ilya Katsev (lobromozel)
RE: break in match
# 5234
How many answers!

I only say the next:

1. We also were kicked out. Several times the server looks at working but only for seconds, after it it was down again.

2. It was longer than 30 minuts.

3. After it we have no reason to think that server started to work correctly and in the near future there will be no troubles.
2011-01-10 22:24:51 Vlad Nipoti (czpaybtc)
RE: break in match
# 5231
Hello The Lords,

I would like to comment your statement.

The situation was following. During the failure of Playok.com players from Czech republic, Poland, Hungary were kicked out whereas players from Russia and Ukraine were not. Unfortunately we managed to get to the playing room maybe a bit later than 30 minutes. When we did, the captain of the Lords reamined. Others went away with the excuse of being too late for playing, although accoring to the schedule it would have been only the end of second round. So the match would have taken a bit more time, if the opponent had wanted.

7.8. If the server (www.kurnik.org) does not work and some games of the match has been played and some players can not continue in their match, then:

this rule means this: 7.8. If the server (www.kurnik.org) does not work and some games of the match has been played and some players DOES NOT WANT TO continue in their match, then:

I find excuse like " Preparation took us a long time and it would be in vain" paarticularly unsuitable in this case, as they had got chance to play on.

One more question. If the result had been 15,5:0,5 and there was server failure, it would have ended up like draw too?

Apparently there are some lacks in the rules or I mistake something.

I thought that Euroleague was about playing and competition. AFter this round and those two cases I may change my opinion.

Kind regards

cuartodebaño
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